With every new season comes the urge to sample everything that remotely interests me, no matter how much I try to avoid it. However, that’s not necessarily a bad thing as, in the words of the Aroduc, “you never know when your dream-eating insect wielding Mai HiME knockoff will turn out to be a psychological romantic thriller, or the strange moeblob show will be full of wit and urine jokes”. This way of thinking seems to be the most advantageous to me, as if I didn;t do this there would be many shows that I wouldn’t check out at first glance that surprise me when I first watch them.
But then there are those shows that don’t. Those shows that have irritating, underwhelming or just plain boring first episodes that make me want to stop watching immediately. In the past, I was much more accepting of these shows and continued to watch since I wished to see as much anime as possible to gain more l337 anime watching points. However, with the coming of the Spring season I have been inflicted with a disease, aptly entitled Everythingfromthenewseasonisshiteritis. With such a fantastic horrible disease I become more critical and possibly even prejudice against the current season, leading me to drop shows straight after the first episode. Around 2 seasons ago I wouldn’t even consider this: I’d be looking for the good points in any show I watched, or any single thing that would keep me watching the show for those precious l337 points. But on the basis of such revelations as this, I see no reason to continue to watch something I dislike from the off.
This is kind of relation to the ranting discussion I was doing over at Daijobu: in defence of the haters, I tried to justify why they had hate-spammed K-ON and dropped it accordingly.
What’s the point of continuing to watch something you immediately dislike, just because it might change or suddenly become appealing when you could be watching shows you want to watch?
TheBigN understandably called this kind of way of thinking “jaded”. As DS said, few anime have shown their true colours from the first episode. They could all develop after their premieres into something that is more often than not is far superior to how they seemed at first. But in my eyes that still doesn’t mean that hating (or just disliking) and dropping a show that’s currently airing after the first episode is a bad decision.
This has been said countless times but no matter what, the primary reason that your watching anime is to be entertained by it. As such, if you’re not being entertained, what’s the point of still watching the show? Sure, the potential is there (buried deep, deep down somewhere) but if you don’t feel like sticking around to see that potential be fulfilled, especially when such potential is being fulfilled in other shows, then you shouldn’t. There’s also always the fact that if you’re more involved with the anime community or at least know some people who do wish to continue watching the show, then they can give their general thoughts and feedback when the show is over and you can decide whether to give it a second chance. With all I say about loving the discourse that watching weekly anime brings, that doesn’t mean I won’t go back and check out past shows I’ve dropped if they’re heavily recommended enough.
There’s also the sense of pointlessness that comes at the end of a particularly bad show, or even halfway through. Case in point: To-love-Ru or however hell you spell the name of that travesty. I had a morbid fascination with this show even though the first episode was bad on so many levels. There was too much fanservice (though really, what could I expect) the animation was poor, the comedy was sparse etc. However, there were moments when the show hit the right note that made me feel that were I not to watch the next episode, I would be cheating myself of something that could turn out well. But it turns out it didn’t and the most fun I got from the show was mocking everything about it. The same thing happened with Kurokami, only this was mostly due to the second (and subsequent episodes). Watched the first episode which was 18 minutes awful and 2-3 minutes great, watched the next where that ratio became even worse until I finally just grew completely frustrated and dropped the damn thing. Had I not wasted my time believeing in thsoe shows, I feel like I would’ve been much better off.
The more critical method I had this time around may have meant I hate-raged on a number of shows, but this time round I’m following my gut feelings and it feels great to watch a variety of stuff that I’m greatly interested in.
Agree or disagree strongly enough to contribute to this poor effort? Trackback to this post and I’ll link back so we can get a round discussion going.
1. Owen_S makes his anitating debut in reply to this post. I would think that anyone would know why they’re dropping a show, just the same as anyone would know why they’re still watching. Those who are posting first impressions is essentially expressing their emotions on a show, while using the positives and negatives to support their opinion and making a judgement based on that opinion. An ill-informed judgement, perhaps, but still one backed up by evidence.
2. Sorrow-kun steals the name of a popular blog to form his anime diet theology. I can understand the benefits of watching everything as highlighted in the post, but when you’re prioritising being able to rant argue comment about anime beyond actually watching and liking the shows then I think something’s gone pretty wrong.
3. Ghostlightning’s reply.
A comment on the Nihon Review:
Bloggers I feel drop shows because they don’t feel like reviewing them all the way through. Bloggers are different from non-blogging fans. There is a compulsion to write about shows. Writing is an end that requires discipline, and strategies like anime-dieting as presented here feed this discipline – whether it’s for critical sharpness, or balance, whatever. Non-bloggers I imagine drop shows because they simply don’t enjoy watching them anymore – and even if they acknowledge the show may get better later on, there are better alternatives than suffering through the wait (i.e. other shows, other activities). At least, that’s how my non-blogging friends do it (as well as my wife, who only blogs when I ask her to). Reviewers have may act as the ‘guardians of quality’ for the anime viewers, so in sticking with shows that are bad and writing about them, they are providing a service to the viewer. I’m no reviewer, but I do find recommendations useful.
I noted that you disagree with sorrow-kun, and have used quite provocative phrasing in your update. The way I see it is that The Nihon Review is a review site, and sorrow-kun is coming from a blogger|reviewer perspective; wherein he(?) would watch shows with the intent to review them (as a priority). Last I checked (a few minutes ago), Grand Punk Railroad is a review blog too, though now with quite a bit of editorial content (all well and good) and that you’ve discontinued episodic reviewing (which must have been a relief). If I read you correctly, you write as an anime fan first, and as a reviewer second.
The review is an incidental product of your primary hobby that is to watch shows. There is no right/wrong approach here – just a clarification. I am the same. To reiterate, sorrow-kun’s approach is quite legit especially since The Nihon Review is a service to the reader: they review shows so you don’t have to watch the ones you won’t like assuming you agree with the reviewers’ perspectives. That’s what Roger Ebert does, that’s what the aggregated Rotten Tomatoes articles do (for the most part).
Your comment in the post proper:
I can’t really agree with your anime diet ideaology. This is mostly because I’m watching anime to be entertained, and you kind of make it sound as if having a balanced watchlist is a requirement for being able to comment on anime in general. I don’t thnk that’s the case at all. If you truly like anime and you have Mad Debatin’ skills then you should be able to use whatever knowledge you have to stand your ground as a commentator, no matter how much you have or haven’t seen.
If I’m only into a limited number of genres (hypothetically, since I’m not really) then that’s all I’ll watch and that’s all I’ll talk about. For example: the many mecha fans on the blogosphere. There’s nothing particularly wrong with taht either.
It’s not a requirement to be a commentator. The barrier to entry is very very very low. However, it’s a requirement if you want to be the most balanced commentator – which may apply to the staff of TNR and not to you. It certainly isn’t my goal, but his position doesn’t invalidate mine (nor yours) at all. Some time ago Baka-Raptor called me out for not assuming the role of “guardian of quality.” From his POV, if we bloggers aren’t, then who is? Since I’m not a reviewer, I don’t take on that role.
The Nihon Review seems to take on this approach, while blogs like Sea Slugs are like water coolers where people gather to talk about the shows they just watched. How do you see your own blogging? Mine is primarily exploratory writing on anime (mostly mecha). I may advocate and recommend (yay Macross!), but it’s clear that I’m partisan about it and my opinion isn’t supposed to be taken as an objective evaluation of the shows I write about.
++++
Let me apologise if I sounded like I HAETED everything about Sorrow-kun’s anime diet theory. What I meant is that that diet doesn’t work for me and many other anime watchers. I do understand that Sorrow-kun is first and foremost a reviewer of anime, and as such may think (perhaps rightly so) the more you’ve seen, the more credibility that you have.
But that’s not what I’m aiming for. I hope that people don’t see Grand Punk Railroad as a review site since I’ve tried to stop doing “professional” reviews since I realised I wasn’t really getting my own personal point across. There’s a reason that this is a blog. In fact, even when I was doing episodic posts, I wasn’t reviewing the shows (by which I take the word review to mean “weigh up the positives and negatives of the each individual episode and give a score that’s as objective as possible”). I was just expressing my thoughts on some of my favourite shows (hence why I picked them to blog in the first place).
But in any case, though I can understand his point of view, I still can’t agree that you will be considered a biased commentator unless you watch the good, the bad and everything in between. I watch a wide variety of shows myself but since I only watch the decent-ZOMGAWESOME shows in the genre, I have a more balanced view and a wider range of knowledge with which to comment on anime. I don’t have to understand or know in detail the worst in order to appreciate and judge fairly the best. And once you’ve seen enough bad anime (which you will within, say, two years) I think you’ll still know enough to pose a fair argument.
In any case, I don’t think I know anyone who goes to one specific review site to learn all the do’s and don’ts of anime from the past year. That’s exactly why we have (or at least should have) a variety of review sites and different perspectives, so thatwe can attain as wide a range of opinion as possible. That’s what aggregators like Rotten Tomatoes are for in terms of movies.
4. Ryan A weighs in on how DECLARING THE NAME OF OUR ATTACK affects the power of our attack. I think he’s right that bloggers do get caught up in saying “This is the series I will follow/drop like a hot potato” rather than just going with a flow. It would be easier and perhaps more enjoyable to watch anime this way, but then again, saying these sorts of things leads to arguments discourse like this so it’s not all bad.
5. adaywithoutme takes a similar viewpoint to me, as an anime viewer rather than an anime critic.
One of the nice things about the anime blogosphere is that having access to it gives you the opportunity to follow a show from a distance
Now there’s a thought, far from going back and rewatching a show when it’s done, just follow those trusted bloggers. They’ll most likely always have something to say and it you go off of that and common sense, you can’t really go wrong.
In any case,I’m an egocentric bastard, at the ery least on Tinternet so I’ll probably do and say what I want but phrase it as gently as possible. If I were to blog a show and it were to go to shit, I’d just troll post about it to make things fun again. Trolling is always fun.
What if you watch 2 episodes? I mean by the 2nd episode it’s really obvious where the show wants to go, and if it doesn’t know where it wants to go then it probably sucks anyway (i.e. asSura crying)
That’s probably the best way to go about it but some shows truly repulsed me via the first episode. For me it was Shangri-suck.
For example, would you watch a second episode of… this?
http://myanimelist.net/anime/6117/Gokujou!!_Mecha_Mote_Iinchou
Oh hell no. Rofl. I actually didn’t really watch the first episode either, that horrible 3D whatever the hell animation it was supposed to be hurt my eyes after 10 minutes.
Why so much raeg?
Heh, this reminds me of our discussion of watchability and its legitimacy as a measure of a show.
Yeah, it’s obvious that some shows are utter crap. For those who aren’t, you can just wait until the second episode. That’s my method, anyway.
Ah, you have brought me to a fantastic conclusion! Not sure if I should write a post about it, but briefly:
Watching seasonal anime is the Sunday afternoon drive. We need less street signs, more flow.
Whatever that means… conclusive explanation is
coming soonpossible.I have dropped shows after one episode, then gone back to find I liked them a lot. Xamdo is an example. Two or three eps is probably better, but where to find the time?
I didn’t think much of ep1 of Shangri-la, but I found ep2 more promising. Sometimes it takes a couple of episodes to start to accept the way the staff has decided to do things. Or for the staff to start getting it right.
I dropped Mecha Mote Iinchou like a hot potato, though. Jewelpet, on the other hand, is a better version of something for a similar clientele.
I shouldn’t have used “jaded” there, but I think “pessimistic” would work better there. I can’t really fault people when entertainment is the name of the game, but as someone who tends to take watching anime more seriously than most, to see people watch one episode, then drop it, and further deem the entire series as crap due to that one episode seems very silly to me. And the people who do that tend to be people who know what they want and what they don’t want.
My only real problem is when people turn “this wasn’t what I wanted/expected” into “shit sux” when they haven’t seen even most of a series, if that makes sense. 😛
Hmm. Let’s say a blogger doesn’t like yaoi. A given manga has 10 chapters, all of which contain yaoi. Does this blogger need to read all 10 chapters to make an informed opinion that they are not likely to enjoy it?
It’s true that first episodes don’t prove much. Haruhi’s first ep was basically trash that only made sense afterwards. That didn’t stop the show from being wildly popular. There are a few other examples of anime trolling their viewers with the first ep.
I do think that someone who knows what they hate and must avoid can make that judgment call early on, though.
They can, though I wouldn’t necessarily agree with it. But as I’ve said before, it’s less the decision, and more of their rationale behind it, like with Owen’s comment.
Borrowing Owen’s term, more often then not, when I hear a person who has Everythingfromthenewseasonisshiteritis, the impression I get is of the latter of his two judgment examples. In addition, that comes with a negative opinion of those that don’t think that way, from things like “I don’t get why anyone would like this” to “if you like this show you are a ‘x’-loving idiot”. And that’s what bugs me more than anything else. Granted, that’s just my interpretationl, and I can easily be wrong with that.
And if I come off as trying to force my views onto others, sorry about that. 😛
No problem. 🙂
In essence, you have a problem with casually made associations. You don’t like it when people quickly say “everything X is trash” and you don’t like it when people say “everyone who likes X is an Xtard.”
However, such judgments form the basis of not only the majority of anime reviews, but also real-life associations like religious and political groups. This in no way invalidates your criticisms of such methods of thinking, but it does recast casual association as a problem that has plagued man ever since the first societies formed.
Also true. That doesn’t mean I can’t try to change how that works for some people at least. 😛
if everyone dropped every show they don’t like after the first 2 episodes, and forgot about it once they’ve dropped it, the anime community would be so much more peaceful!
I have a hard time gauging just how jaded I actually am. I limit the shows I watch more because of time issues rather than thinking that they aren’t any good. I also tend to be a bit stubborn about shows I’ve taken the time to start since that’s usually the hardest part — just picking things up. Thus, I rarely drop things on episode one, though sometimes I really want to (Haruhi, goddamn). I will usually last out at least three or four episodes until all my hope and silly optimism is crushed. I guess it’s usually just denial and an angry “HOW DARE YOU SUCK!” to the series in question.
Still, I’m not sure I’d considered dropped series wasted time. At the very least, you’ve garnered enough from the show to be able to hold ground in a potential argument about its merits (or lack thereof). In tight-knit communities like these, that’s worth something, I guess.
Well there’s nothing wrong with being “jaded” about the currently airing animes and focusing on what you really really like, for as long as you’d be open (and humble?) enough to pick up other series that you’ve missed. There are series that you won’t ever enjoy, either because you’ve grown out of them, or your tastes have matured enough to realize how they really suck or something, but there are also other gems which you might be missing out on.
I don’t know with you, but I find it comforting to know of “good-great animes” from past seasons that I overlooked… for whatever reasons. And after watching it I’d be wondering just how the heck I passed up on it. I guess I find it comforting to see my tastes change through time, from being jaded to unjaded, and vice versa (I think it’s a never ending cycle, but as long as you’re willing to be unjaded from a current jaded state, I don’t think there should be any problems). Our tastes change, but as long as we continue to have that certain sense of wonder for anime, manga, etc., I think we’re all good.
I think you and WAH need to have a talk about what’s important in anime blogging. I would find the result of that talk interesting.
Jen would totally own wah, she has otaku street cred. wah has none.
Okay, now you’re being silly. 😛
@TheBigN
Yeah, this. One episode is no way to fairly judge a series’ quality, since first eps tend to be misleading, particularly for good anime. Sometimes I get the feeling that hooking the audience is so important with first eps, that creators will deliberately make something that’s generic and derivative when compared to the rest of the series, in an attempt to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.
I take a pretty philosophically extreme view on this matter; I think the only truly fair way to judge a series is to watch every minute, beginning to end. Cover-to-cover, so to say. But that’s often impractical. Who would watch To-Love-Ru all the way through just to come to the conclusion that it’s utter crap? Only crazy people… like me. In fact, I didn’t in this case, I dropped it about half way through, but that was only because the fansubbers I was following dropped it to, and by that point, I cbf. And even after that, I didn’t feel like I’d given it a fair shake.
But is it a temporary judgement, as in “This is what this anime looks like to me at this point in time to me, ergo I will drop it” or “This is what this anime is, ergo I will drop it”? It’s an important difference, if you ask me, and dismissing it… I don’t know.
If it’s the latter judgement, then how is it ‘evidence’ if new ‘evidence’ comes up to contradict the previous one in following weeks?
A friend of mine used to say that there is no such thing as a wrong decision because you consciously try to make the right one based on the information you have at the time. New information in the future doesn’t make your past decision wrong, and it doesn’t make your past information inaccurate, it’s just that you could make a better decision now — or as the cliché goes, hindsight is 20/20.
But when there are dozens of shows to choose from at any given time, I don’t think it’s wrong of Omisyth to make decisions quickly and move on, based on the information he has at episode 1 or 2. True, an animu may not show its true colors at episode 1, but I think you can make a reasonable judgment of quality at the very least.
What would be wrong is to hold your early evaluation as gospel truth permanently and not factor in that ‘new evidence’ you mention. Meaning, when your friends and fellow bloggers tell you to reconsider, it might be a good idea to do so.
@omo
BECAUSE I CAN.
@psgels
What’s surprising is that it’s really that simple. At least to me.
@Ryan A
Omisyth approves that analogy (^^)bb.
@hashi
That actually reminds of Kurokami even more. They managed to get the directing for the actions scenes perfect in the first episode, yet the next seven were awful. How does that even happen?
@TheBigN
People are always going to dislike certain shows, so it would be better just to disregard their opinion if they’re known (or at least you know them) for disliking that genre. Forcing your opinions on others is where it gets stupid.
@animekritik
There would be less dorama like this 😮
@Kiri
Seems like you’ve suffered more than many because you foolishly believed in things. There’s a life lesson: Believe in things as little as possible 😛
I don’t think you’d ever be able to hold up in an argument until you’d finished the series. Then again, I wouldn’t get into an argument that I wouldn’t think I’d have a chance of winning.
@usagijen
I don’t think anyone’s really jaded, just that those who could be considered jaded know what they want to watch and mght not want to be forgiving with shows that aren’t that. I think if we’re still watchnig anime/ reading manga after such a long time then there must be some sense of wonder that we’re getting each time.
@Sorrow-kun
I’d say that by halfway through a series is enough to judge it fairly, though some are more susceptible to this than others. For comedies and especialy the slice-of-life genre.
@Owen_S
I think that the gut reaction, no matter how it’s expressed, is the former of those two judgements.
As for the second part:
OTOU-SHIELDI couldn’t really say it better than otou-san did.
[…] fell behind, and that was depressing. Blogging wasn’t fun then. Oh it can be like this, but then wouldn’t that block a lot of potential animes? Since it’s been a while, I […]
[…] from Grand Punk Railroad opened the discussion by highlighting the fact that choosing to drop an anime can be a real dilemma. When deciding to drop an anime, one will probably ask themselves “what […]
Speaking as someone who reviews anime once in a blue moon, Sorrow-kun’s approach isn’t an invalid one. Part of building your reputation as a reviewer means being able to discuss the medium from a knowledgeable standpoint. In the case of anime, it means consuming a boatload so that you can comment effectively through the raw experience of having seen other shows like it and getting a feel for genre conventions and storytelling methods. Some people pride themselves on being able to communicate their opinions backed by this experience.
If you were to read movie reviews, you’d want to read someone who has seen a lot of movies and, as a result, has a huge cross section with which to use as a basis for comparison. It has everything to do with establishing street cred as it were and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Now I do want to write something brief ^^
[…] Omisyth’s write-up on 1st episode droppage brought me to a nice conclusion about this thing many of us do as anime-bloggers (myself included). […]
Its just the first episode! Go watch the second episode and maybe you will like it.
Oh wait, first episodes of an anime has a big role on the anime, there is a possibility to drop it at the very beginning (like what I do). So yeah, I agree with those so-called 1st episode droppage. Please ignore the one I said at the very beginning of this comment.
I don’t think it’s a zero-sum game. People can’t shake off bias, though they can aspire to be the least biased by reviewing a larger sample size.
Also, bias isn’t a disastrous thing to have!
I have a bias for Macross, so what – I can’t comment on Gundam now? As long as commentators acknowledge their bias the reader has an opportunity to consider the opinion in a fuller way.
There’s more than one way to conquer the universe and it’s best I think to learn from each other’s approaches. Mine is closer to yours than it is to sorrow-kun’s, but it’s quite refreshing to see how such an approach (which I’ve considered too some time ago) is actually practiced.
This is turning into a very interesting conversation.
@ghostlightning
Your point about acknowledging bias is a good one. I think the game that people who read anime review sites play (or at least I hope they do) is to find a reviewer(s) whose opinions tend to align with their own and then look at what they say when determining what to watch. The game that I like to play when I go to sites like Rotten Tomatoes is to read reviews that have a different opinion to mine, so I can examine and maybe understand a different perspective to my own. Which leads me to my next point…
@omisyth
That’s exactly what the anime blogosphere needs, IMO, an anime review aggregator, like Rotten Tomatoes, or Metacritic.com. Unless one already exists that I don’t know about. And, I am admittedly talking from a very biased viewpoint. I’m not sure what the demand is for anime reviews, but I like to think it’s strong
And I’m fully aware that my (almost) no-drop policy isn’t for everyone. It’s a very impractical policy to follow. Though, I’m not sure I agree on the idea that a couple of years is enough to get a flavour of cliched and crappy anime. Cliches follow trends, and trends change over time. That’s no more true than in anime, IMO. The average anime today is very different from the average anime just five years ago.
@omisyth
It’s ironic mostly because there are few other things in life I believe in. 😛 Still, I think you’d be able to hold ground well enough. You can at least use the argument, “The episodes past x don’t matter because it wasn’t interesting enough to begin with and was crappy because of y. Series that take more than x episodes to be interesting obviously suck at pacing, etc.”
[…] Oh snap, it’s a round robin. […]
[…] Nonetheless, based on what I’ve seen so far, I don’t think ghostlightning’s Everythingfromthenewseasonisshiteritis disease is a mental delusion that strikes a few separate individuals, at least this time. This […]
[…] Second EXPLOSIVE discussion, but this time as a Round Robin. […]
[…] 1st episode droppage – My attempt at a Round Robin. Rather successful in that it encouraged discussion, at least. […]